Betty Dodson with Carlin Ross

Better Orgasms. Better World.

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I think slut walks got the message out into the mainstream that not correcting to modesty means you still maintain your choice and consent. I only ever saw that in blogs and forums before, not on the news. 
When we stop saying a womans sexy clothes are provocative without thinking how ridiculous that would sound to say a mans sexy clothes are provocative, and that someone has no right to feel they can be ludicrously "provoked" into rude and disrespectful behaviour because of what someone else is wearing!! then we've won. 

I never plan to use the word slut but if people want to use it inside the specific debate jokingly to diminish it as an insult and show how ludicrous it is (slut is the sexual default setting for all of humanity of both sexes) as at the start if this  D&R video then I'm OK with that. But if Slut walks promote the use of the word outside that context then it can be self defeating and slut concept promoting. I think the possibility that slut walks unintentionally promote the word being used in that way is one thing some people seem uneasy about. 

We all have to be mindful of our own safety, I do and I'm 6' 3" and can out run anyone :) but there's no harm in protesting when that mindfulness becomes intrusive and unnecessarily burdensome. 

The fact is that we SHOULD be abe to wear those things. We shouldn't HAVE to be worried about what we were wearing while in court. What we wear DOES NOT indicate the status of my consent. Someone can walk down the street wearing a g-string, hooker-heels and pasties, it doesn't mean they are giving consent.
No matter what, people will continue to get raped (and I say people because I mean men, women and
genderqueer/neutral people). There will
always be violent, agressive, powerhungry people who will rape other
people. That will never change. What can, and should, change is the victim and survivor blaming. You're right, we can't control other peoples actions, but the person who has a violent crime happen to them should not be the one on trial.
The point of the slut walk is that we can't "Provoke" people into raping us. If someone is going to try and rape us, they will try to rape us weather we're wearing a burka or nothing at all. It doesn't give them the right to do it. If you think dressing modestly will help you not get raped, you are being foolish. It does not matter what we are wearing, and what we were wearing shouldn't be admissable in court.
It doesn't matter what the victim was wearing, because the rapist should be able to control themselves. Because they didn't control themselves, they should go to prison. Clothes is never, EVER an indicator of concent. END OF STORY.

 Really? I'm planning on putting on tight jeans, a very tight, very low cut halter top, and red stilettos tonight and going out. There are people out there who would say I'm dressing like a slut, hell, I might even agree with them. And I find the way I'm planning on dressing extremely pleasant. So will the person I'm meeting up with. Perhaps I should only meet him in my house so as not to inflict unpleasantness on any innocent bystanders...
This blog post seems confused to me. You state that on one hand women should be able to dress however they want without being attacked. You reiterate that rape and sexual abuse isn't about sex, but about power. And then you state the above and ask women to think about what they wear and where they go. That power that rape is about is the power to dictate how women dress, how they behave, where they go, what they do, what they think, how they feel. It's about defining women's reality, their boundaries, and their identities. And shades of that are in your post, in those words above.
It doesn't matter what a woman wears, if a man wants to rape her, he will rape her. And then blame the clothes, the alcohol, her "teasing" him, her acceptance of the meal he just paid for, the look she gave him... we need to stop the justifications from holding legal, political, and social weight, not ask women not to dress so slutty and go out in public that way.

How we dress indicates who we are as sexual beings, but not what we want to do sexually at any given moment.

I think we can all agree on what's sexy in a woman's attire. A very short skirt that also hugs the contours of a beautifully rounded ass above legs that end with high heeled shoes. Combine this with a sheer top that outlines her perky breasts that are not hidden by that awful bra that makes all tits look like the same rounded breast under a thick fabric that hides any suggestion of a nipple!
Ah the nipple! A guy friend once said as we talked outside a restaurant, "Your head lights are on." It took a moment for me to realize my nipples were erect and pushing against my cotton shirt. Two tiny points protruding from very modest sized A cupped boobs. Like all women I wore a bra until I was 22 and then swore off doing it in art school. I'd wear all black before I put on a tit bag! For me, it was a form of unbearable bondage with straps that fell off my narrow shoulders and a band around my ribs that restricted my breathing.

Years later when I dressed consciously to demonstrate my sexual preference, it was  liberating. I was a hot blonde leather dyke who wore boots, tights and a bikers learther jacket. My dress signaled I was a top! In control! If any sex were to take place, I'd let you know. So the truth is a girl can dress anyway she chooses but like Shakespear said, All of life is a stage so be aware of your costume. We can dress liike tops who are in control (and you could still be raped but odds are against it) Or dress in some filmsy short dress wearing high heels that are designed to keep you off balance making  you a potential victim. Unless your martiial arts teacher has shown you how to use a sittetto as a weapon! Just be aware! How we dress will elicit different responses. We all respond to visual ques that say yes, no, maybe, or on my terms. It's a choice we can make.

I think everyone admits there is a problem and already is conscious of what they're wearing and where they are but what people are saying is the need to do that is unsatisfactory and feels unfair. If there were lots of muggings in a nieghbourhood then everyone would individually take avoidance precautions until it reached a point where they all got together and said, hey we wanna go out in the evening and we want a nicer environment, let's analyse the causes of this problem and actively start to change it. That's what's happening, not just with slut walks but with all the other manifistations of this sentiment as well.

Look, right now I'm wearing jeans that are a little loose (yay healthy weight loss) and a comfortable somewhat low cut blouse. However, when I tell my husband it's time for sex in a couple of hours the clothes will come off slowly and I'll probably flash the cute bra I'm wearing before getting completely naked. So what I'm wearing doesn't always announce how sexually available I am (I'll just tell you and anyone else around).

I think the writer absolutely agrees.  And i think that is the point really of the post.
Just announcing to the world that what you wear is not a statement of what you want is not helpful.  Wear whatever you want but don't be naive enough to think there are those who won't crucify you for it.  If an attitude can silence the deranged minds of those who look to punish, that's wonderful.
The Slutwalk statement is a great one. The post is merely saying there is personal responsibility for what results.  
I for one sure wish it were not the case and our laws attempt to prevent us for going to jail for how we express ourselves and our bodies.  But, for instance, when young girls flaunt their bodies in the name of freedom and rebellion, they place themselves at risk.
And I do think, in my judgement, there is something to be said about taste and dignity.  I think the other word we used to use for slut was "tramp." There's something that just doesn't ring true to me about showing up looking like you just got out of bed, that is exactly a statement of self love. I think its plain provocative (meaning it encourages bad things to happen) but  everyone has the right to do it.
When conversations about murderers and serial killers  ask "how could that happen," or "what were they thinking?" those are crazy questions. Those murderers were not rational nor thinking .
And at Heylin, of course, no one knows by what you are wearing how you are feeling. I think the post was speaking to those who DO think that and are dangerous.

Do lesbians provoke corrective rape by looking obviously gay? By your reasoning "smart women" should not be openly gay, or at least NOT dress like a 'lesbian', where corrective rape happens to women?
 
Dressing very butch in many places results in gay bashings. Does that mean dressing in gender queer ways is a stupid thing to do? No it does not and this shows the hole in your logic.

So here we are again with the ... rape is wrong no matter what women are wearing BUT women are stupid and unpleasant if they dress in sexually provocative ways... it's so frustrating!

When a woman dresses like a slut I think she looks damn fine and it certainly is not unpleasant for me. What truly isn't pleasant for anyone is the way women love to judge other women.

What you wear is not a major contributing factor in the occurance of rape and it is discussed in dissproportionaly high amounts opposed to what are the major factors. It's imperative we reframe the conversation, and THAT is what slutwalk is about. I would suggest that instead of making back handed insults about the way women dress we should be encouraging the idea that Sex-ed in schools should involve self-defense for girls as regularly and consistently as they have gym class (and I think Betty's stiletto weapon idea is a great one to add to the syllabus)...and whilst this is happening the boys should be educated about consent and that there is not and never will be any excuse for raping someone. 

http://dodsonandross.com/blogs/liandra-dahl/2011/06/rape-i-see-it

If I was a man, I'd be insulted that it was assumed I couldn't control myself when a provocative woman walked by. Also forgot about the lesbian angle. I find corrective rape to be an oxymoron. Do men actually think that by raping a woman he will "change her mind" about her orientation? All rape is disgusting.

I absolutely agree with what Liandra said.

Thanks Heylin, I find that having to express my sexuality into a society that nearly always expects and assumes that i'm preditory rather than appeciative, sad, but motivates me to try and change that. But this assumption even effects the language as you've made a lovely point and used the term a "provocative woman" right inside it :) (I've used this term myself many times).
I love to see a sexy woman, but her being sexy isn't provocation, and if she shows she desires me that's lovely but I'm still not being provoked. If we regularly have sex I'm still not being provoked to rape her, any more than I'm provoked into stealing her car because she regularly gives me a lift home :) Yeah thanks Heylin for the empathy and I agree the whole notion of provoking rape is outrageous.

This post obviously misses the point but others hear have covered why. I'd just like to point out that I went to SlutWalk Denver, and I've read every article I could find covering Slutwalks in other cities. And guess what, for as many women who dressed like Sluts there were women who dressed casual, covered up, in the clothes they were raped in ect. The media however likes to focus on skin, so thats what you see.

The succint message of SlutWalk (imo) is that " I may be dressed up looking to get some, but it doesn't mean I want it from You"

Not to mention, many women dress however the fuck they want becacuse it makes THEM feel good. I love panties, I love slutty, pretty, lacy, panties. And you know what? I wear them even if no one else is going to see them, because they make ME feel sexy.

All of the posts are filled with great ideas and great fights to fight.  But no one is talking about the reality -- the sheer fact that despite all your best intentions, how do we teach the people who don't want to be educated.  The men raping and assaulting are not the men you  are addressing here.  Of course rapists are never justified, and  no clothing is responsible for that but it happens a lot; those men say they were given license. They're wrong but they're also strong. 
I wonder how any of you would deal with this if you had a 12 year old daughter who wore skirts up to her crotch, and tops that accentuated her newly discovered cleavage.
Would you tell her, Rock on with your bad Self or would you try to teach her about the craziness out there in the world so that she is prepared.

This post obviously misses the point but others hear have covered why. I'd just like to point out that I went to SlutWalk Denver, and I've read every article I could find covering Slutwalks in other cities. And guess what, for as many women who dressed like Sluts there were women who dressed casual, covered up, in the clothes they were raped in ect. The media however likes to focus on skin, so thats what you see.

The succint message of SlutWalk (imo) is that " I may be dressed up looking to get some, but it doesn't mean I want it from You"

Not to mention, many women dress however the fuck they want becacuse it makes THEM feel good. I love panties, I love slutty, pretty, lacy, panties. And you know what? I wear them even if no one else is going to see them, because they make ME feel sexy.

No I don't have a 12 year old but I do have an 11 year old daughter who just got her period and has breasts. Does that count? yes I do tell her to rock on with her bad self. I've let her choose what she wears since she was two. I do most of the clothes buying though  so I do control that. My daughter likes tops that show her midrif and yes she is proud of her new boobs and she wears tight tops. I've watched my daughter get around in a spiderman outfit with a tutu on. I've seen her wear a puffy skirted disco dress, with no straps over ripped jeans and her favourite runners. She also likes short shorts and baggy t-shirts. I do let her wear a bikini. 

That's about as sexy as she gets though because she is 11; because I have let her sit and watch MTV and then discussed the comparison between male and female images; because I have encouraged her to learn martial arts karate and capoeira; to do sports as well as dance, to read adventure books with female as well as male protagonists; because I have discussed fasion as consumnerist propaganda that keeps her from focusing on things that matter; because I have told her that high heels will cripple her spine in her later adult years if she wears them whilst her bones are still growing; because I have debated with her the choice between the ability to move easily and clothes that look pretty but restrict movement; because I have always discussed her sexuality and it's development with her openly; because I am a responsible parent but I will not take her choice from her but neither will I let our culture do that. 

My daughter is a child and therefore not an adult woman. I also buy what food she will eat. However I educate her about food and nutrition so that when she is an adult she will make the best choices for her between indulgence, enjoyment and health. When my daughter is an adult woman if she chooses to dress slutty I will not bat an eyelid because I will have made sure she is fully informed and prepared for the world that awaits her. 

I hate seeing really young girls dressed in a way that accentuates their sexuality. At the same time, as a mother of 2 daughters, it's imperative to let them make their own decisions and develop their own style. My youngest daughter tends towards conservative dress in terms of how she is covered with jeans and t-shirts. She has proclaimed loudly that she is not "girly" although most of her clothes come from a store that is exclusively for girls. This might change when she gets older and probably will. The oldest daughter unfortunately was not allowed to make her own fashion choices until she was much older (more to do with economics than perceived morality, my clothing purchases were also few and far between) but she also leans towards fairly conversative. You can definitely tell both my girls are not afraid of showing the world their feminine shape but they are pretty conversative compared to what I see at the mall. I think that Liandra is making some good choices though (we moms always have to judge each other, jeez!) in that she is showing and making her daughter aware of the double standard that still exists in the world. Also, by giving her choices now and letting her ease into being a sexual being, there won't be this "Oh my God, let me dress like THIS to get attention!" I do similar things with my daughter as well. On a lighter note, I think my son will organize Slob Walk for all the men who think that brushing their teeth and keeping nails trimmed are too much trouble in order to find a girlfriend.

I don't want to see young children dressed like overtly sexual adult women either. We are in total agreement. Ultimately my point was that it is NOT comparable that I don't provide my daughter overtly sexual clothes because SHE IS A CHILD. Thus it does NOT follow on, as Isjb was implying it does, that simply because I would not allow my 11 year old child to dress slutty that it is wrong or unpleassant for an adult woman to do so. I provide my daughter with the agency within safe parameters and empower her to have fully informed autonomy when she is an adult making these choices for herself. 

For example I would not allow my child to have anal sex at a BDSM party because IT IS FOR ADULTS but I would encourage an adult woman to do so if that was what she was into because she is an ADULT and that is her sexually autonomous choice. There is no logical correlation between what parents would allow children to do and this constant judgement of women and their attire.

I agree that women should be encouraged to utilise every means possible for self preservation, protection and wellbeing. However I think the smart choice is not to indulge in the judgement of other women but to cast it off as part of the systemic problem that is the legacy of millenia of female repression. We waste a disproportionately large amount of time debating and judging how women dress and we're all sucked into this bullshit conversation that perpetuates the circumstances where what a woman wears is still admissable in court when she has been raped. The way a woman dresses does not cause rape, neither does her drinking habits, neither does her profession, neither does her sexual history. Rapist causes rape and a culture that judges women for how they dress provides them with a ready excuse for it after the act. 

I am not debating  HOW women dress nor am I judging them.I am stating a fact about the reality of how she is perceived.  And, the fact that young girls need to be aware of how they are judged by men who would hurt them.  They will make their own choices.  
And
The messenger is dead!!

My statement that we moms always judge each other was both tongue in cheek yet true. This topic even turns up in women's magazines as something we shouldn't do. I think in motherhood there is this pressure to live up to this ideal and frankly I feel that living up to the ideal takes away from actual parenting. I will observe other parents (people watching in general is a favorite activity) and if I see something I feel my help in my journey, I'll try to use it.
Also got your point between the differences between adults and children, I have both adult and minor children and my conversations with each are quite different in terms of everything: I encourage the adult to make her own decisions about money, work, etc...while offering my own experience as an example while I guide and push the younger ones to be able to take on the adult role not just in terms of sex but in how to be employable and coexist peacefully with other humans.
As far as what people wear: My personal taste is that people can walk around naked if they want to (actually nakedness is not as enticing to me as certain clothing) but damn, I should not have smell you from 10 feet away. My mom always said that a real man would see a beautiful naked woman and offer her his coat.
And lsjbaby: I see your point as well. I noticed some creepy dude in the mall checking out some 12 year olds in short shorts. As a man told me once, "That girl is a child, my dick might not care about the difference but my brain does so I'll just stay away."

lsjbaby I think your under the impression that rape happens because someone dresses sexy. It  usually doesn't. Women really can do nothing about the causes of rape and violence which are usually about a mentallty ill mans intense love being rejected. 
It's boys that need the attention and education. About sexual emotions and how to not let feelings of rejection express as violence. How to deal with rejection both the repeated turning down of their initial propositions and the being ditched by someone they desperately love and feel they can't live without. Women can't take responsibility for those things but must be free to live their life and make their own choices and love or reject just as we can.  

Really, really, is that what you think.
I am incredulous. 
quite the contrary. i'm curious. where did you read anything that would suggest that.

Heylin when we carry the disrespectful preditory notion of sex that our society has all the way down to children then that's where it gets really offensive. But on a good karma level of appreciation I think little girls sexuality is definitely beautiful and I really like to think they think that too as they grow older and form their sexual self image and more importantly form their own desires. This is the flip side of my last post I suppose. It's not really what they're wearing but being emotionally ready to handle their desires, the emotions produced by rejection and of making informed educated decisions.  

So then Jake how do we protect women from these mentally ill men while the rest of the world learns to accept all women's choice of clothing.
I don't think SANE men rape women and as I've said rape is not about sex.  It's about the chance that because a woman dresses like a slut that crazy guy will feel he has permission.
I think its a grand dilemma and worse the sex ed we teach will help many to understand how to treat eachother better and more respectfully but  those other guys -- we still have them to deal with. If we have one less statistic that's wonderful.
I don't think sluttiness causes rape/ it may just be the last straw in some crazy guys psyche that says okay, i'm all over this one.

The job I have for my children is to provide guidance and most importantly a safe haven for them to develop as human beings. My youngest daughter is adjusting to many things about her body and right now her father and I are trying to get her to be comfortable in her own skin which is really hard for little girls. Hell, it was hard for me even in my twenties.

Hmm. I'm trying to think of a way to say this, because I know it might not be a popular opinion.

I'm fairly young (22 years old), and I've always looked at clothes as a form of self-expression. Due to budgetary restrictions and my own body issues (not just weight, I have a lot of skin conditions that I cover up, particularly on my legs) I don't dress the way I want to but even if I could or felt confident enough to do so, I don't think I would walk around in "slutty" clothes. The way I see it, you dress that way when you want attention. I don't, I hate attention (funny from someone with green hair, but it's true). So I wouldn't.

But the reality is, whether clothes = consent  is irrelevant, because the way you dress has a lot to do with how people percieve you, right or wrong. Like, you wouldn't come in for a job interview wearing shlumpy-looking jeans and an old, stained T-shirt, would you? Because they would think you were lazy and sloppy. It's basically the same idea. And it's wrong but it's 100% true, that's the way things are and whether it can be changed or not... I'm not sure.

The men that go around raping women are mentally ill, plain and simple, if they think that wearing certain outfits makes a woman a target. But at the same time, if women don't want that sort of attention, they can avoid it. It's quite easy, I do it all the time.

But nobody has to listen to me, I pretty much hate modern trends anyway. The way women dress now is really no less restrictive than the way women in the Victorian era dressed, we just use less fabric now. And don't even get me started on clothes they make for little girls these days... It makes me ill when I see something in the Girls' section that I could easily go and replicate in the Juniors' or Womens' section. They are CHILDREN. What is so wrong with dressing them like kids and not tiny adults!? A six-year-old does NOT need a pair of go-go boots with heels on them!

I've found that this country is so... weird about sexuality. Dirty and prudish at the same time. I don't get it.

One night, I was on my way home from school, and on the bus, there was this man who stuck his tongue out at me in a sexual way.  I ignored this, and some moments later when we were off the bus, I found this same man's hand on my ass!

I said, "...you don't touch my ass!" and ran off!

Want to know what I was wearing?

Since this was the winter in Maryland, I wore: a pair jeans, a sweatshirt, sneakers, socks, a big-ass coat and a backpack!

That asshole wanted to harass me ANYWAY because I was a perfect target for his bullshit.

THANK GOD I was 22-years-old, and I was not younger!

Some years before that:

Again, this was the winter in Maryland - but,  I was at the mall, browsing.  This man came up to me with a note that said:  "Do you want to have a sex party?

I said: "Hell no!"
He kept following me around the mall, and I had to hide between two ladies and a baby until I eventually had to leave.  Thank God I left.  It snowed heavily soon after. 

I was 16-years-old.

For all the bitching and moaning about the "hysteria" over sexual abuse/assault during the '80s,  I PERSONALLY   was/am EXTREMELY GRATEFUL that I listened to the talk shows and the various guest - and I read some books, and more information on the Internet later.  Because (understandably) people were very fearful for me, but didn't really sit down and explain to me why.

Other times, I was followed.

I am/was VERY FORTUNATE!

BTW, this is what (possible) predators do - they test you to see if you will fall for their bullshit - before they do anything serious - I ignored the guy with the lewd tongue because I thought it was nothing, not understanding that it was a sign (IN HIS MIND!) to grab my  ass some moments later - but, like Liandra said - if you want to believe that you can avoid harassment/abuse/violence by dress - go ahead.  I just find it bullshit.

Don't misunderstand. I've been through the same thing a number of times over the last few years. I've been felt up by drunk guys "by accident", I've been sexually harassed in parking lots, and eventually I stopped going downtown in Athens at night (unless someone was with me) because it got too dangerous. I know that in reality it has nothing to do with how you dress, because not one of those times have I been exposed in any way. Compared to other girls that were around, I was practically dressed like a nun.

BUT. That doesn't mean I understand the mentality of women who walk around with their tits hanging out and then get pissed off when men look at them. Just as an example. Why would you go around in a low-cut shirt and expect them not to look? It's unrealistic. Just because it's not right doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And this is coming from someone whose chest makes all her tops look low-cut, with the exception of T-shirts. I go out of my way to keep people from looking at them, as much as I can. 

That's horrifying, though. You should've found a security guard, they're usually crawling all over every mall I go to. They can't do much, but they can escort you out and make sure the guy doesn't get his hands on you. Again, I understand- I've had to get someone to walk me to my car because some redneck was cat-calling at me from his truck bed when I went in the grocery store. I made sure to describe his truck (and him, of course) to a store manager beforehand, just in case someone else got harassed, too.

Thank you for your post, as it summons the essence of the misconception of the connection between rape and appearance. (And may I add, that we are talking not of rape in general, but a very specific and relatively rare kind of rape - that when a woman gets attacked but an unknown man or a shallow aquaintance.) Please, give me a single survey or other evidence that proves the corelation between rape, or even a higher risk of rape, and "provocative clothing" in a woman. 
You suggest that a "provocative" outfit in a woman can trigger a "crazy" man's rape tendencies. This is an inaccurate, and sadly very common misconception. Ask anyone who is familier with the workings of the minds of rapists, and they will tell you that they often know very well the difference between consent and non-consent. They just don't care. Please note that far from all rapists are mentally ill. It is easy to dismiss them as crazy, but they don't have to have more than a "social disease" or good ol' hatered towards women. Also, it is important to bare in mind that rape is hardly ever impulsive, but actually often premeditated. This effectively terminates the whole "the short skirt was the last straw" theory.
A big problem is the courts, which still allow a womans "provocative" clothing or intoxicated state to decriminalize the rapist. Slutwalks seem like a great idea. If we manage to get the courts to stop allowing what people wear affect their verdict, we've come a long way.
So, women, wear whatever you want. The odds of being attacked when wearing a "slutty" outfit is no greater than if you wear a big fat burka.

Hi Jake,
I really think you should look more into the motivations behind rape. I've never heard of rejection or unrequited love being a common cause for rape.