Betty Dodson with Carlin Ross

Better Orgasms. Better World.

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You cannot know the antidepressant is blocking her orgasm! Loss of libido and anorgasmia is one *possible* side effect. When taking these drugs you can get one, several or no side effects. 

You also fail to point out that depression in itself is a huge libido killer, as is an overactive mind. She's worried, thinks a lot and that could very well prevent her from having orgasms. You've said yourself that thinking too much is one of the reasons perfectly healthy women have problems achieving orgasm! 

"You have to make a choice: if you stay on the drug just accept a life without orgasms. Or decide to come off of the drug and enjoy a sexlife with orgasms. I believe it's as simple as that unless you are sucidal."

I think this is not only irresponsible advice, but also untrue. You don't know why she's on the medicine or how long she's been on it. The medicine doesn't have to be the reason she's having problems. Also, a lot of side effects go away after the first 3-6 weeks. If it's the medicine, it could very well be it's temporary.

I have a bigger libido on meds, because without them I get a lot of angst, which in turn completely kills any interest in sex. There are also things in life that are might be more important than having orgasms. Like for instance being able to go to work, eat properly, see people or just being able to get out of bed in the morning. Than you have something to make positive cycles out of to try to re-build yourself. To sacrafice your orgasms for a period of time is not the end of the world. But like I said, we can't know if that's the case here.

Elin, putting a teen on anti-depressants is what I'd call irresponsible. It's also been noted that anyone on an anti-depressant for 10 years is permanantly damaged. What did people used to do before we had these awful drugs? I imagine they somehow managed to get through a few bad spells that are simply part of being human. Me thinks you protest too much! Why don't you stick to sharing your own experience instead of taking out after me?

Again I totally agree with Betty.
Most of those drugs do kill the libido for most women. And if she not suicidal, why not find a good therapist to talk to? You call tell that person you don't want to be on those meds, who can make you if you refuse?
And I think orgasms are extremely important in life, especially when you're having a hard time. They're relaxing, they help you kinda get away from it all. If I had a really hard time and someone would take away my orgasms, that would be hell! Because I knew I can have orgasms generally but wouldn't be able to achieve any. Frustrating!

Betty, I have been a fan of your website for several years now. However, saying that anyone who has been on anti-depressants for over 10 years is permanently damaged is extremely offensive to anyone who has chronic mental health issues and helps to perpetuate the stigma surrounding mental illness. Would you call someone with MS permanently damaged? Giving you the benefit of the doubt that I am being picky about your word choice and that I understand your intent, yes, it is true, you are dealing with a chronic illness if you require the use of an anti-depressant for long periods of time. But it is exactly that - an illness, which is something you deal with on a daily basis and do your best to manage.
Psychiatrists are medically trained, and from personal experience, I do not consider it irresponsible to put teenagers on anti-depressants. I was put on an anti-depressant at the age of 17, and I believe it truly helped, along with weekly talk therapy and exercise. I suffered from major depression, not just "a few bad spells that a part of being human".
My advice to S, as to anyone who has mental health concerns, is to find what works for you. Do NOT be ashamed to struggle with mental health issues or to be on anti-depressants - it's more common than anyone will ever let on due to the stigma. But you need to find a solution that works best for you (preferably with your doctor's help) whether it's meds, therapy, exercise, diet change, relaxation techniques, meditation, yoga, or a combination. Anti-depressant side effects vary greatly amongst individuals and some anti-depressants have less reported sexual side effects than others. While the Celexa probably does contribute to your inability to orgasm, your mood and anxiety is also playing a large role as well.
It does not have to be a choice between orgasms and meds - I've had no problems while being on anti-depressants. It may be a frustrating process finding exactly what will work for you that will be satisfactory for both your mood and orgasms, but hang in there :-)

I absolutely agree with Elin. Sometimes people can't be happy on their own. I'm one of them, myself. Right now I need medications to deal with my impulses to hurt myself. Without my meds my anhedonia is so severe I can barely do anything that I usually love doing, and it is impossible to get me to do anything proactive on my own.
And yes, I am a teenager. I would love to not be depressed. But goddammit, do not tell someone to get off their medications with barely any of their backstory. After being unmotivated and hating myself for a year, I wanted to be on anti-depressants. Some people are put on meds without as much forethought as I and my doctor put into it, and I don't believe that's a good thing.
And PS: the anti-depressant Bupropion does not decrease libido as many other anti-depressants tend to. If she has been on the anti-depressant for more than 6-8 weeks, that means it has definitely kicked into her system and may be interfering with her self-love. If she's depressed, she may have a lot on her mind. I know I have trouble clearing my head when all I want is to sleep, much less an orgasm.
Ms. Dodson, it makes me so angry to see you bashing something that many people genuinely need. Orgasms are important, but a) not all medications fuck up your sex life, and b) I don't want to be suicidal and I don't want to cut myself and I don't want to hate myself so wholeheartedly as I do without medication right now.

Betty I respect you very much, and agree with your stance on many many drugs (especially birth control pills and ritalin) but I, too, disagree here.
Some people do legitamately need antidepressants.  Yes everybody does go through "rough patches" that they work through, but clinical depression is not that.  It is a real disease.  It is being depressed to the point of immobilization, inactivity, and uselessness; even when there is nothing bad happening.  My guess for what depressed people did before we had antidepressants? Either:
A) Kill themselves
B) Get labeled a "loony," and languish away until they stagnate (or get locked away)
C) Get lobotomized (especially if they had tried to kill themselves before)
So, you're right, probably there weren't that many depressed people around in the "old days" for those reasons.  Thankfully modern society does not have this "Adapt or Die" principle.
As for S, I would say talk to your doctor about switching medication.  My boyfriend has chronic depression like you do, and was once put on a drug that negatively affected his libido and his sexual pleasure, so he talked to his doctor about how much he disliked that drug and they switched him to a different drug.  Now he is back to his old sexual self and we both have orgasms together very frequently.  I don't know if he suffers different side effects from this drug, but he doesn't seem to and hasn't mentioned any.
Everybody's chemistry is different, and individualized medicine is truly the way going forward.  You need an antidepressant that works well with your body, where the benefits are great enough to justify the side effects (if any).

I agree with Betty. Regardless of what you're dealing with, the use of drugs should always be a last resort, especially if you are a teen, as it cannot help you solve anything permanently. Good luck to everyone.

It amazes me that there are people that still defend drug companies and doctors. The defenders of these drugs often say they trust their doctors, the drug companies and the experts in the medical industry when they say a drug is effective and safe. Did they not hear about the Avandia scandal? Avandia's maker knowingly withheld information about side effects that caused the drug to give heart attacks an estimated 100,000 people. Even accounting for the fines they still made billions from Avandia. A couple of news links on the Avandia scandal [url=http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Healthday/story?id=4507292&page=1 ]here[/url] and here.

For those that need someone with a position of authority in medicine to say that antidepressants don't work and are harmful I have just the person for you. Marcia Angell is a Senior Lecturer in Social Medicine at Harvard Medical School and former Editor in Chief of The New England Journal of Medicine. She has a nice overview of the topic that can be read here, here, and here:

A disturbing report that aired on pbs about foster children being victims of pill doctors and the pharmaceutical industry can be seen [url= http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/health/video-drugs-in-the-system-foster-children-and-antipsychotic-medication/9651/]here[/url].

The US pharmaceutical manufacturing industry makes 200 billion dollars a year. The global pharmaceutical manufacturing industry makes 800 billion dollars a year. With that much money up for grabs is it really surprising there are many bad drugs out there?

Ease up on the dosage once a week. I cut my lexapro dosage in half, and don't take it at all if I expect to get any juctice the next day.

Most of the time I keep quiet when these discussions appear, but this time I just have to give my support to Elin, because I find her comment so important.

Betty, you were silenced and censored for years and years, I know this, but today you have a voice. The most influential one on this site. People trust you and that you know what you're talking about. And that comes with a huge responsibility, especially when people turn to you with the big questions. And so it's really important that people can speak up in the comments when your advice is off or when you speak about things that you don't know enough about. It's got more to do with giving the person who asks better/more responsible advice, than criticizing you as a person. (Even though it's sometimes hard to tell apart the frustration that comes with thinking that you're not taking responsibility for the power you have, from personal criticism.) If this site is serious with its intention to help people and give them good advice, these comments are really important. Otherwise, this part of the site can easily turn into something that is occasionally dangerous.

 I cannot know all things and don't pretend that I do. That's why we never censor members comments to posts. So by all means jump in there and have at me. After all this kind of discussion is good for all of us. The person who gave links to Marcia Angell comments on these drugs is right on target. Go back and read her link. This is what freedom is all about: discussion and debate.

Betty, I'm always in good critical form. You do exactly what you accuse me of doing - going after me instead of my arguments. You try to justify your stance without actually meeting any of the arguments I have put forth.
Let's just stick to the fact that we can't know it's the meds that are causing her problems. That was the question, and we can't know.

And as a reply to your last post where you write: "That's why we never censor members comments to posts."
I assume you're not aware that I've been censored on this site. I was having a discussion with Jake which I was not allowed to continue because Carlin Ross thought I was "being contrary for the sake of being contrary". That's her interpretation, of course. So you do censor the comments here at D&R, even when they're not offensive or discriminating.

Well, it seems contradictory to me, when on the one hand I hear you say, Betty, that Elin protests too much and that (in my interpretation) you'd rather she kept quiet when she has an opinion that contradicts yours, and on the other hand that (as I understand it) all discussion and debate is good. I don't know what to do with that. And still I can't seem to find a comment from you on whether we can or can not know that the meds are blocking S's orgasms, or on what kind of impact it can have to state such a thing with a voice that holds as much power as yours does on this site. In what ways are those questions threatening, I wonder?

I am not bringing this up to spite you - on the contrary, I think Internet flame wars are horrible - but because I care deeply about this site and it's message.

Also, it concerns me to hear that Elin has been censored on here.

I think it's a much better option to put in the Que. before mental health meds. It's successes include smoking cessation and weight loss or gain and confidence building. When successful it's a kind of hard drive clean up for your subconscious.  

Betty I think you need suggestions. I'm not in a profession but as far as I can see when someone gives a professional opinion.  If their opinion is a strong hunch then they say "I think it's the meds" rather than "it's the meds" because the last one in the context of a professional opinion is an assertion and so has the surety that needs a citation. 

I would think it seems likely that S's problem is it's her meds.  Going on just the 2 paragraphs in her email. If I was talking to her I would certainly want to hear more and in some depth before making a more certain statement. 

So yeah that's my suggestion to balance your assertiveness with an acknowledgement that you can't prove your opinion. Not being able to prove an opinion doesn't necessarily make it any less credible or correct, it just limits it's persuasiveness.

Someguy, you should never tamper with the dosage without consulting your doctor. If you experience side effects that are unacceptable to you, you should bring that up and perhaps try another medicine. Side effects vary a lot depending on the individual, so it's common that people try more than one before before getting it right. I may experience no side effects from my medicine, but the same will make you feel like hell and vice versa.

Betty hope your OK x

There's a great piece by Marica Angell "Drug Companies & Doctors: A Story of Corruption. Here's an excerpt:

”No one knows the total amount provided by drug companies to physicians, but I estimate from the annual reports of the top nine US drug companies that it comes to tens of billions of dollars a year. By such means, the pharmaceutical industry has gained enormous control over how doctors evaluate and use its own products. Its extensive ties to physicians, particularly senior faculty at prestigious medical schools, affect the results of research, the way medicine is practiced, and even the definition of what constitutes a disease.”

……”Many drugs that are assumed to be effective are probably little better than placebos, but there is no way to know because negative results are hidden. One clue was provided six years ago by four researchers who, using the Freedom of Information Act, obtained FDA reviews of every placebo-controlled clinical trial submitted for initial approval of the six most widely used antidepressant drugs approved between 1987 and 1999—Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Celexa, Serzone, and Effexor.10

They found that on average, placebos were 80 percent as effective as the drugs. The difference between drug and placebo was so small that it was unlikely to be of any clinical significance. The results were much the same for all six drugs: all were equally ineffective. But because favorable results were published and unfavorable results buried (in this case, within the FDA), the public and the medical profession believed these drugs were potent antidepressants.”

Her report is many pages long and very detailed. I’ve read it several times in the past. I’m convinced Big Pharma and our medical professionals are in cahoots. They pretend to care about people’s health, but they care about profits, Baby, money and more money! Personally, I declare war on doctors, meds and the pharmaceutical companies.

I, for one, have no doubt that Big Pharma is bad news. S's meds might well be the problem. But the point of this discussion is that from the information S has provided us with we can't know a) why she's on them or b) if they're the (sole) reason for her problems. Jake E put it very elegantly when he suggested you "balance your assertiveness with an acknowledgement that you can't prove your opinion. Not being able to prove an opinion doesn't necessarily make it any less credible or correct, it just limits it's persuasiveness".

Marcia Angell will give you all the proof anyone could ever need. People might consider balancing their objections with a little knowledge!

We all think it's likely the meds anyway :)

Betty-
As a Gender & Sexuality Studies major, I respect the advances you have made to the field. However, I have to disagree with your dismissal of antidepressants and unwillingness to help people work through their issues.
I'm reading through this section because I have never had an orgasm because I am on antidepressants. I was hoping to find information on how to have an orgasm without sacrificing my medication/mental health. However, all I'm seeing is condemnation of anyone who takes antidepressants. Here is my story:
I was put on antidepressants after a year of crying every night, not being able to do anything, hating myself, self-harming, wishing I was dead. I was 18. If you think that's wrong, well let me tell you something: I would have killed myself if I hadn't been put on antidepressants. 
When I became sexually active in college, it frustrated me to no end that I couldn't get off. I knew it was because of my antidepressants, so I started seeing a psychiatrist and she started reducing my dosage so I could actually experience orgasm. Far from having the intended effect, I became so suicidal that I went to the emergency room and spent a few days in a psych hospital. That experience still haunts me. Afterwards, my psychiatrist raised my dose again and put me on Wellbutrin.
Now that I'm more stable, I'm going to try to reduce my dosage again, while staying on Wellbutrin, because my lack of orgasm is causing me the most stress/anxiety in my life, and I'm more confident in my support system. 
Here's the thing, Betty. I see you reading these comments and then completely failing to acknowledge them. I'm sure you've never had depression, otherwise you would understand. I read the article by Marcia Angell, you don't have to throw that at me. So what if my meds are only 20% effective? 20% is better than nothing. So before you condemn people who take antidepressants, maybe you should readjust your worldview and try to teach them ways to have orgasms without going off the meds. For some people (like myself), antidepressants have literally saved lives.

Have you ever considered hypnotism. While your on meds and stable you have the freedom to try new things. Hypnotism reprograms your subconscious and it's that part of your mind that causes your depression. If you have free consultations with several hypnotherapists they could advise you on how they may be able to slowley reduce your meds as the alternative treatment slowley takes over. Then choose your hypnotherapist.  It may work and I think it's worth a try. 

Probably the best book on this is "Surviving America's Depression Crisis" by Bruce E. Levine.  For the most part,  Betty does not say that everyone should go off their medications.  But her thoughts line up quite accurately with Dr. Levine's.  He does not say anyone should go off their medications if they are helping you.  But he scathingly questions the larger issues around anti-depressants,  the passive acceptance of chemical solutions to everything,  the ignorance of larger cultural aspect of modern life that lionize CONFORMITY and SUPPRESSION of individuality,  the fact that no one questions the effectiveness of the pills, when largely they only work if you BELIEVE in them,  and if they are truly anti-depressants,  why do they suppress sexual drive, which SHOULD be a normal, healthy and positive thing?  He also dares to ask,  Whats wrong with being a little depressive now and then?  Also, the pill solution evolved because no-one wanted to stigmatize depression.  The goal was to prevent people from believing depression was "their fault".   Yet that issue has backfired since now they are only responsible to take their pills.  But assigning blame to something else (brain chemistry) has damaged the morale and motivation depressed people need to DO SOMETHING more than just wait for their diagnosis and new pill.   This is all very disempowering.  Our culture has a lot of blame to take for depression, and yet we try to solve that problem with a pill.  For a lot of people,  they're still taking the pills,  and still waiting for results.

on the non-effectiveness of most anti-depressents. I believe it was some Asian culture who saw  depression as the natural process that happened before making a breakthrough.
I'm familiar with Dr. Levines book. When I quoted him one member of D&R complained because he was just a psychologist and not a medical doctor. If they only knew how much money the pharmaceutical companies pump into doctors by offering them gifts of elaborate vacations in ideal locaations.
Some people think that i've never been depressed. Really? They should try to publically promote masturbation and see how much fun it is NOT. The way I'd deal with those hopeles periods was to increase my orgasms with more masturbation or partnersex. Also Yoga and meditation was very healing for me. The one med I would recommend would be cannibus, but we are still in the process of legalizing this amazing plant.

So happy to see Daniel's and Betty's comments. I have known many people on antidepressants, including my partner, and have yet to see them do any good on a long-term basis. One of my riding teachers had a personal trainer who had been repeatedly hospitalized with depression. Finally he said enough was enough, changed his diet, became passionate about exercise, and ended his depression.

There may be a very few people who need to take these drugs, but I doubt it. The people I've known who were taking them seemed pretty depressed to me, so they were prescribed higher and higher dosages, more medications, etc. We live in a depressing, stressful culture, as Daniel says, and the only thing we can do to challenge the medicalization of everyday life is take charge of our health. Admittedly, this is harder to do than swallowing the poisons doctors hand out.